What an interesting article. It's pretty incredible that this issue is still so pervasive. It persists in mainstream media on so many silly micro levels. For instance, why do all female detectives where wear high heals and tight fitting dress clothes to chase perpetrators? I would love to read your take on Gamergate.
Thank you! Yes, and it's difficult to address these micro disciminations without people accusing you of reading into them :/ crime is my favourite genre, but so many of its tropes are steeped in misogyny. And I'd love to write about Gamergate! ("love" in a "it makes me very angry" kinda way haha)
Love this article. I did a little rant about this when I reviewed Larry Niven's Ringworld. Classic science ficiton and even classic modern science fiction is often full of sexism but people have these rose tinted glasses about them and they wont realise that there are seriously problematic elements to them.
I recently edited some work that had a lot of problematic content. mysogency and SA. I had to have some hard converations about it. it's our choice whether we include these types of things and having a defence like (it's history) is just passing the book. It's not even a good defence as most of these worlds arent medieval earth so why should they include our historical baggage? Lazy writing.
Thank you, Stephen. I think your comment about 'rose tinted glasses' is the perfect way to sum up my point in this article. It's willful ignorance, I suppose.
I think it can be hard to differentiate between lazy writing and the genuine need to include things like misogyny and SA. They exist(ed) in our world, so we shouldn't banish them from our writing for fear of being accused of bigotry. Like you say, it's a choice, and I think it's one that we should be able to back up properly.
I always think (and say my authors) that we should be interrogating our writing. Why have we put that in? What purpose does it serve? Why do we feel this way? Should I be writing this?
Although, in fairness, the HBO-ificiation of GoT is significantly MORE sexist, nude scenes, etc. than the books in many respects. They also did away with many more minor characters, including many women, which he had time to flesh out more deeply. I think another big difference is that virtually all the chapters of the entire books simply have a name, a character's name: Cersei, Jon, Theo, Sansa, etc. This is really interesting. This definitively make the book about a collection of portraits of individuals from different perspectives, whatever their background. The show attempted to do that justice, but I don't think it's quite the same thing.
Why you decided to comment on a post about a deep-rooted problem with sexism that "in fairness" it wasn't AS bad in the books is beyond me. There is no fairness here, nor is this relevant to my point. The fact remains that they are both sexist, and that George R R Martin was wrong for attributing this sexism to "history".
If you want to talk book povs, only 1 out of the 5 released books in the A Song of Ice and Fire series has more chapters written from a female perspective than male. And in the latest book (A Dance with Dragons), its only 25% female. Even if this was equal, telling stories from female perspectives is not feminist when those female characters are presented in misogynistic ways.
Also, having apparently "strong" female characters in minor roles means very little because 1. they cannot be fleshed out enough for a reader to know whether they are *actually* strong and 2. this does not detract from the fact that the major female characters are depicted in a misogynistic way.
"Latest book," sorry my heart skipped some beats there because I thought the new one had finally been released, but you were actually referring to the last one, which was in 2011, which, according to your bio, would place you at 10 years old? Oh boy, that makes me feel old..
So you've read them all? I'm not saying you don't have valid points, but I've watched a lot of interviews with George over the years, and read his blog a fair amount, he strikes me as an extremely decent person who is probably more aligned than you with not about most issues (e..g he gave uni commencement speeches decrying many aspects of division, censorship, and repression in current American society)--he has also publicly championed young, female sci fi authors, on multiple occasions. I think, if you wanted to point out sexism in sci fi, there are better targets--perhaps you are too young to even care about him or have read his works at all, but given the subject of the post, I was very surprised you didn't even mention the godfather of all Sci Fi, Isaac Asimov, who was a conceptual genius, but his books are rife with 1-D women (to an infinitely greater degree than anything I've ever seen from GRR or most more modern authors), and he was notorious for slapping womens' bottoms at sci fi conventions, apparently..
Anyhow, cheers, and I hope George does finally finish that magnum opus one day, in between championing other authors, editing collections of books, and buying bowling alleys for artists collectives.
Like I said in my previous reply, George R R Martin’s real-life, other writings or other actions are not relevant here. You don’t know the guy, so the fact he appears “extremely decent” to you due to some of his public actions is inconsequential. Championing women writers is great, speaking up about inequality is great, bur none of those things change the fact that he depicts women poorly, continually defends this, and uses a collective misunderstanding of “history” to do so. These are not the actions of a decent man.
I specifically chose Game of Thrones (note, not A Song if Ice and Fire) and comic books as my main points of reference because of their cultural significance. I wanted to make a wider point while using examples that the average, non-fan would have encountered. I also wanted to emphasise the fact that these things are still happening today. George R R Martin is still putting out books, House of the Dragon is on our TV screens, but Isaac Asimov is dead. And to the thousands, if not millions of little girls like me who read and watched this media.. how to you think this makes us feel? Do you really think we care if the author gave a few good speeches?!
Since you’ve already missed the point of my article twice, are making (incorrect) assumptions about me based on my age, and are openly excited to continue reading sexist fiction, this will be my final response.
I feel like comics, video games and basically all depictions of fictional characters, not just in the sci-fi genre, suffer from the same problem of objectification and unrealistic body standards. I don't think it has to do with misogyny per say, because it's irrelevant if the character is female or male - male characters are just as exaggerated. Like say the depiction of Superman. What man looks like that, except some roidhead who will be dead from heart disease at the age of 30?
Female characters are usually way more exposed and naked, while male characters often come with unattainable physiques. And the depiction of couples in those fictional works is just like that - a giant roidhead whose muscles will rip the skin-tight clothes he's wearing any second, with a semi-naked woman.
I wonder to what extent is this truly a problem for society, though. After all, those are hyper-exaggerated works of fiction, so its obvious they are not depictions of reality. Is it going to affect people subconsciously and reaffirm negative stereotypes and expectations? And does fiction need to constantly portray reality? I can't tell.
Just because it happens to men too doesn't mean it's any less misogynistic when it happens to women. Plus, like my article shows, it happens more frequently and on a larger scale to women, so gender is hardly irrelevant. Although I do agree that it all comes down to the same patiarchical root, which harms men too.
In terms of whether this is a problem for society, there is no room for speculation. There are countless research articles which prove the link between sexualisation, objectification, gendered stereotypes and poor self-image, self-esteem and treatment of women and girls in real-life. There is a psychological link between how women are depicted in media and how they, and others, view and treat them. Here are a few to get you started:
So, while you might be able to differentiate and not see the problem, others can't. And science proves it. There's loads more of these studies too, which I'm sure you can find yourself if you're interested.
While I agree that fiction doesn't necessarily have to reflect reality, I do think we need to question *why* sexist narratives in particular are being used so frequently. I long for the day I can pick up a game or fantasy book without feeling misrepresented or otherwise shitty about myself and my gender. I mean, if we can create a whole different reality, let's at least have some imagination about it.
I can't help but notice that clothing sold in general is more revealing for women, than men. There aren't many male clothes that leave the entire back revealed. Or any male shorts that are literally 5 cm long. Even clothes considered more "conservative", such as a dress leave more shoulder area revealed for women, than the traditional male suit equivalent. So these works of fiction aren't that far from reality and the fashion industry, I would say.
Would you classify the fashion industry as misogynist too? Because when you mention these things, some argue that revealing clothes are a part of women's sexual empowerment, and arguing against it is misogynistic. But regarding fictional portrayals of women's clothing, you argue for the contrary. So quite honestly, I'm receiving very mixed signals from all sides.
Oh, okay. If you are consistent with your beliefs, then its more than fair enough, I have nothing to disagree with here. Just making sure. Thank you for replying.
I recommend readers who are interested in well written fantasy devoid of sexism read Monster-Blood Tattoo series by DM Cornish. There is a character who faces some sexism when she joins the military, but she quickly puts it to rest by simply being competent, but not extraordinary, in the performance of her duties.
>>Why, then, are we still catering to male sexual fantasies? Because let’s be real, that’s what this is.<<
Follow the money. If that's what's selling, more of it will be produced. It's honestly that simple. Get people to buy more of the stuff you're recommending, and more of THAT will be produced. But it's NOT selling, hence there's less (none?) of it.
Even historically, stuff like that Ms. Marvel comic, it just didn't sell, compared to other Marvel comics of the time. I should know, I actually bought that 1st issue when it came out. It wasn't any good, but I bought it because Spiderman was in it.
Drop theMs., call her Captain Marvel, and make a movie? The movie bombed. Partly the actress, she's just plain terrible, but mostly because the movie pandered, and by doing so, just didn't have an audience. Not to mention, also because Ms. Marvel was, at best, very much an also-ran in the comic book world. But, hey, we need a female hero.
You know what they say about, be the change you want to see in the world? Write good stories with the formula you prefer (and I'm with you, I'd like that), and make them good enough to stand on their own two feet. That is, don't force me to read a book because the heroine is a woman written properly, instead, make me want to read a great book that happens to have a realistic female lead.
I completely agree with you. That’s my point: write good, strong female characters. There are so few of them, so when we get films or comics or books with female leads, there’s kind of a collective groan that it’ll just be another attempt to please the feminist crowd. It’s just a cycle where neither group are helping the other.
There’s also, of course, the group who refuse to read about strong women because they don’t think it’s realistic, or they can’t relate, or they’re just sexist. If you’re not a white man writing about white men, it’s harder to get noticed. We need change at a social level too because, like I said, this is a misogynistic fantasy, and no amount of good writing will fix that, but it might help.
I'm nodding along here to your reply, as well. Octavia Butler has at least one fantastic book with a realistic, amazing female lead, and it's one of my favorites. It's Kindred (https://amzn.to/3XroeHM).
Of course, that's a black woman writing about a black woman. I think expecting a white man, or any other shade of man, to write women accurately might be a bit too big of an ask. That doesn't excuse the terrible job they're doing, but it might set an upper limit on how good it could possibly get.
Heinlein, an author I grew up reading, well, his women are caricatures at best, teenage wet dreams the rest of the time. I cringed when I revisited what used to be treasured books.
Anyway, I hope more women write great stories with female characters. I'd love to read them.
I don't agree that men can't write strong women (my friend Stephen Black has a dark fantasy book called The Famine Witch which proves this is possible). Especially in fantasy where you don't really need lived experience to write about women because the world is (usually) one so different to our own. To me, an indicator of a good female character is if you can switch their gender out to a man and it not be weird. Like I said, stop fixating on gender and assumptions about it, just write women as people!
Thanks for the recommendation too - I haven't heard of Octavia Butler but I'll have to check her out!
Oh, certainly, some men can write strong women. I'm just saying it's not common. I don't even know if I'd recognize it, to be honest, not being a woman. How do you know what you don't know?
I hope you enjoy Kindred, if you look it up. I'd be interested in your opinion of it.
I've always been a fan of fantasy, but the sexism and racism in both YA (which I grew up on) and Adult (which I have been transitioning over into) fantasy is too much at times. It's part of the reason why I've always wanted to write my own fantasy epic where women who look like me get to be the heroes.
I also hate the way gendered violence is used as a plot device or, even worse, simply for decoration. Why does every single female main character have to be sexually violated in some way? Can a FANTASY writer not imagine another way to give a woman a backstory, a motivation, or trauma (if trauma is necessary for ther character development)? And why are FANTASY writers so obsessed with the Middle Ages specifically? There are so many other historical periods that deserve more love imo
I’m not a fan of Fantasy, but am sure someone would want to read the fantasy novel you’ll write. Where women like you be the hero’s without being subdued to sexism.
Thank you, I've responded over on your article.
What an interesting article. It's pretty incredible that this issue is still so pervasive. It persists in mainstream media on so many silly micro levels. For instance, why do all female detectives where wear high heals and tight fitting dress clothes to chase perpetrators? I would love to read your take on Gamergate.
Thank you! Yes, and it's difficult to address these micro disciminations without people accusing you of reading into them :/ crime is my favourite genre, but so many of its tropes are steeped in misogyny. And I'd love to write about Gamergate! ("love" in a "it makes me very angry" kinda way haha)
Love this article. I did a little rant about this when I reviewed Larry Niven's Ringworld. Classic science ficiton and even classic modern science fiction is often full of sexism but people have these rose tinted glasses about them and they wont realise that there are seriously problematic elements to them.
I recently edited some work that had a lot of problematic content. mysogency and SA. I had to have some hard converations about it. it's our choice whether we include these types of things and having a defence like (it's history) is just passing the book. It's not even a good defence as most of these worlds arent medieval earth so why should they include our historical baggage? Lazy writing.
Thank you, Stephen. I think your comment about 'rose tinted glasses' is the perfect way to sum up my point in this article. It's willful ignorance, I suppose.
I think it can be hard to differentiate between lazy writing and the genuine need to include things like misogyny and SA. They exist(ed) in our world, so we shouldn't banish them from our writing for fear of being accused of bigotry. Like you say, it's a choice, and I think it's one that we should be able to back up properly.
I always think (and say my authors) that we should be interrogating our writing. Why have we put that in? What purpose does it serve? Why do we feel this way? Should I be writing this?
Wonderful article. What a slog it has been for women. So sorry my 34 year old daughter still has to push back against this from time to time.
Thank you Cheryl. Pushing back a little each day leads to big change over time
Although, in fairness, the HBO-ificiation of GoT is significantly MORE sexist, nude scenes, etc. than the books in many respects. They also did away with many more minor characters, including many women, which he had time to flesh out more deeply. I think another big difference is that virtually all the chapters of the entire books simply have a name, a character's name: Cersei, Jon, Theo, Sansa, etc. This is really interesting. This definitively make the book about a collection of portraits of individuals from different perspectives, whatever their background. The show attempted to do that justice, but I don't think it's quite the same thing.
Why you decided to comment on a post about a deep-rooted problem with sexism that "in fairness" it wasn't AS bad in the books is beyond me. There is no fairness here, nor is this relevant to my point. The fact remains that they are both sexist, and that George R R Martin was wrong for attributing this sexism to "history".
If you want to talk book povs, only 1 out of the 5 released books in the A Song of Ice and Fire series has more chapters written from a female perspective than male. And in the latest book (A Dance with Dragons), its only 25% female. Even if this was equal, telling stories from female perspectives is not feminist when those female characters are presented in misogynistic ways.
Also, having apparently "strong" female characters in minor roles means very little because 1. they cannot be fleshed out enough for a reader to know whether they are *actually* strong and 2. this does not detract from the fact that the major female characters are depicted in a misogynistic way.
"Latest book," sorry my heart skipped some beats there because I thought the new one had finally been released, but you were actually referring to the last one, which was in 2011, which, according to your bio, would place you at 10 years old? Oh boy, that makes me feel old..
So you've read them all? I'm not saying you don't have valid points, but I've watched a lot of interviews with George over the years, and read his blog a fair amount, he strikes me as an extremely decent person who is probably more aligned than you with not about most issues (e..g he gave uni commencement speeches decrying many aspects of division, censorship, and repression in current American society)--he has also publicly championed young, female sci fi authors, on multiple occasions. I think, if you wanted to point out sexism in sci fi, there are better targets--perhaps you are too young to even care about him or have read his works at all, but given the subject of the post, I was very surprised you didn't even mention the godfather of all Sci Fi, Isaac Asimov, who was a conceptual genius, but his books are rife with 1-D women (to an infinitely greater degree than anything I've ever seen from GRR or most more modern authors), and he was notorious for slapping womens' bottoms at sci fi conventions, apparently..
Anyhow, cheers, and I hope George does finally finish that magnum opus one day, in between championing other authors, editing collections of books, and buying bowling alleys for artists collectives.
Like I said in my previous reply, George R R Martin’s real-life, other writings or other actions are not relevant here. You don’t know the guy, so the fact he appears “extremely decent” to you due to some of his public actions is inconsequential. Championing women writers is great, speaking up about inequality is great, bur none of those things change the fact that he depicts women poorly, continually defends this, and uses a collective misunderstanding of “history” to do so. These are not the actions of a decent man.
I specifically chose Game of Thrones (note, not A Song if Ice and Fire) and comic books as my main points of reference because of their cultural significance. I wanted to make a wider point while using examples that the average, non-fan would have encountered. I also wanted to emphasise the fact that these things are still happening today. George R R Martin is still putting out books, House of the Dragon is on our TV screens, but Isaac Asimov is dead. And to the thousands, if not millions of little girls like me who read and watched this media.. how to you think this makes us feel? Do you really think we care if the author gave a few good speeches?!
Since you’ve already missed the point of my article twice, are making (incorrect) assumptions about me based on my age, and are openly excited to continue reading sexist fiction, this will be my final response.
I feel like comics, video games and basically all depictions of fictional characters, not just in the sci-fi genre, suffer from the same problem of objectification and unrealistic body standards. I don't think it has to do with misogyny per say, because it's irrelevant if the character is female or male - male characters are just as exaggerated. Like say the depiction of Superman. What man looks like that, except some roidhead who will be dead from heart disease at the age of 30?
Female characters are usually way more exposed and naked, while male characters often come with unattainable physiques. And the depiction of couples in those fictional works is just like that - a giant roidhead whose muscles will rip the skin-tight clothes he's wearing any second, with a semi-naked woman.
Look at this for example (I wish I could upload pictures in the comment) - https://readersentertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/B.jpg
I wonder to what extent is this truly a problem for society, though. After all, those are hyper-exaggerated works of fiction, so its obvious they are not depictions of reality. Is it going to affect people subconsciously and reaffirm negative stereotypes and expectations? And does fiction need to constantly portray reality? I can't tell.
Just because it happens to men too doesn't mean it's any less misogynistic when it happens to women. Plus, like my article shows, it happens more frequently and on a larger scale to women, so gender is hardly irrelevant. Although I do agree that it all comes down to the same patiarchical root, which harms men too.
In terms of whether this is a problem for society, there is no room for speculation. There are countless research articles which prove the link between sexualisation, objectification, gendered stereotypes and poor self-image, self-esteem and treatment of women and girls in real-life. There is a psychological link between how women are depicted in media and how they, and others, view and treat them. Here are a few to get you started:
https://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report
https://journals-sagepub-com.libproxy.ucl.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1177/0886260512441078
https://link-springer-com.libproxy.ucl.ac.uk/article/10.1007/s11199-009-9683-8
https://www.stanfordvr.com/mm/2013/fox-chb-sexualized-virtual-selves.pdf
So, while you might be able to differentiate and not see the problem, others can't. And science proves it. There's loads more of these studies too, which I'm sure you can find yourself if you're interested.
While I agree that fiction doesn't necessarily have to reflect reality, I do think we need to question *why* sexist narratives in particular are being used so frequently. I long for the day I can pick up a game or fantasy book without feeling misrepresented or otherwise shitty about myself and my gender. I mean, if we can create a whole different reality, let's at least have some imagination about it.
I can't help but notice that clothing sold in general is more revealing for women, than men. There aren't many male clothes that leave the entire back revealed. Or any male shorts that are literally 5 cm long. Even clothes considered more "conservative", such as a dress leave more shoulder area revealed for women, than the traditional male suit equivalent. So these works of fiction aren't that far from reality and the fashion industry, I would say.
Would you classify the fashion industry as misogynist too? Because when you mention these things, some argue that revealing clothes are a part of women's sexual empowerment, and arguing against it is misogynistic. But regarding fictional portrayals of women's clothing, you argue for the contrary. So quite honestly, I'm receiving very mixed signals from all sides.
Simple answer: yes, the fashion industry is misogynistic. No mixed signals here
Oh, okay. If you are consistent with your beliefs, then its more than fair enough, I have nothing to disagree with here. Just making sure. Thank you for replying.
I recommend readers who are interested in well written fantasy devoid of sexism read Monster-Blood Tattoo series by DM Cornish. There is a character who faces some sexism when she joins the military, but she quickly puts it to rest by simply being competent, but not extraordinary, in the performance of her duties.
If only that’s all it took to avoid sexism irl! Thanks for the recommendation though, it looks good AND it’s a series, which I always enjoy 😋
>>Why, then, are we still catering to male sexual fantasies? Because let’s be real, that’s what this is.<<
Follow the money. If that's what's selling, more of it will be produced. It's honestly that simple. Get people to buy more of the stuff you're recommending, and more of THAT will be produced. But it's NOT selling, hence there's less (none?) of it.
Even historically, stuff like that Ms. Marvel comic, it just didn't sell, compared to other Marvel comics of the time. I should know, I actually bought that 1st issue when it came out. It wasn't any good, but I bought it because Spiderman was in it.
Drop theMs., call her Captain Marvel, and make a movie? The movie bombed. Partly the actress, she's just plain terrible, but mostly because the movie pandered, and by doing so, just didn't have an audience. Not to mention, also because Ms. Marvel was, at best, very much an also-ran in the comic book world. But, hey, we need a female hero.
You know what they say about, be the change you want to see in the world? Write good stories with the formula you prefer (and I'm with you, I'd like that), and make them good enough to stand on their own two feet. That is, don't force me to read a book because the heroine is a woman written properly, instead, make me want to read a great book that happens to have a realistic female lead.
I completely agree with you. That’s my point: write good, strong female characters. There are so few of them, so when we get films or comics or books with female leads, there’s kind of a collective groan that it’ll just be another attempt to please the feminist crowd. It’s just a cycle where neither group are helping the other.
There’s also, of course, the group who refuse to read about strong women because they don’t think it’s realistic, or they can’t relate, or they’re just sexist. If you’re not a white man writing about white men, it’s harder to get noticed. We need change at a social level too because, like I said, this is a misogynistic fantasy, and no amount of good writing will fix that, but it might help.
Thanks for your perspective
I'm nodding along here to your reply, as well. Octavia Butler has at least one fantastic book with a realistic, amazing female lead, and it's one of my favorites. It's Kindred (https://amzn.to/3XroeHM).
Of course, that's a black woman writing about a black woman. I think expecting a white man, or any other shade of man, to write women accurately might be a bit too big of an ask. That doesn't excuse the terrible job they're doing, but it might set an upper limit on how good it could possibly get.
Heinlein, an author I grew up reading, well, his women are caricatures at best, teenage wet dreams the rest of the time. I cringed when I revisited what used to be treasured books.
Anyway, I hope more women write great stories with female characters. I'd love to read them.
I don't agree that men can't write strong women (my friend Stephen Black has a dark fantasy book called The Famine Witch which proves this is possible). Especially in fantasy where you don't really need lived experience to write about women because the world is (usually) one so different to our own. To me, an indicator of a good female character is if you can switch their gender out to a man and it not be weird. Like I said, stop fixating on gender and assumptions about it, just write women as people!
Thanks for the recommendation too - I haven't heard of Octavia Butler but I'll have to check her out!
Oh, certainly, some men can write strong women. I'm just saying it's not common. I don't even know if I'd recognize it, to be honest, not being a woman. How do you know what you don't know?
I hope you enjoy Kindred, if you look it up. I'd be interested in your opinion of it.
I've always been a fan of fantasy, but the sexism and racism in both YA (which I grew up on) and Adult (which I have been transitioning over into) fantasy is too much at times. It's part of the reason why I've always wanted to write my own fantasy epic where women who look like me get to be the heroes.
I also hate the way gendered violence is used as a plot device or, even worse, simply for decoration. Why does every single female main character have to be sexually violated in some way? Can a FANTASY writer not imagine another way to give a woman a backstory, a motivation, or trauma (if trauma is necessary for ther character development)? And why are FANTASY writers so obsessed with the Middle Ages specifically? There are so many other historical periods that deserve more love imo
I’m not a fan of Fantasy, but am sure someone would want to read the fantasy novel you’ll write. Where women like you be the hero’s without being subdued to sexism.
Valid thoughts. History owes no definition to the present and casting our standard from the past can do a whole lot of harm.
It might prove difficult but, it’s not impossible.
Great work, May.